In Chapter 2, Pony
boy says, "You take up for your buddies, no matter what they do. When you're a gang, you stick up for the members." Do you agree with this philosophy? Why or why not? From what we know of Ponyboy's gang, should he stick up for their behavior? If you were Ponyboy, how might you behave when, instead of being on your own with a good book or movie, you're with the rest of the greasers?
I do not agree with ponyboys philosophy which is that a gang has to stick up for each other or else it is not a gang; because if one kid gets caught it is not like everyone else has to go down with him. Also if you just do everything the "gang" does then some bad things might happen as specially in ponyboys case. But on the other hand a gang has to be somewhat connected or else it would split up. And if they do split up they probably will be very vulnerable to the socs. If I were in ponyboys situation I would probably stay with the greasers because if I don't I will probably be beaten up and jumped by the socs a lot. But even ponyboy doesn't follow his own rule because when dally was talking nastily to the two girls ponnyboy and Johnny didn't follow him they just ignored him. So I think that you shouldn't always stick up for you friends but sometimes you have to.
ReplyDeleteIf I was raised with the greasers I probably would grow up like them! Even if I wanted to just read a book and be a good girl, I would still be influenced by the badness of the greasers!If I was with the greasers and trying to impress them I would try to act exactly like them, even though it would probably lead me to trouble. I would want to impress them not even caring about what others would think about me.
ReplyDeleteI think that Ponyboy's gang has its good and bad sides, and that they are like part of his family, and he has to support them no matter what happens. However I do not think his philosophy would work all of the time, because not every gang is like Ponyboy's, and not every member can see the other members true colors. I think that unless, like Ponyboy, you understand all the members good and bad sides, you should only support them in good things.
ReplyDeleteI definitely do not agree with Ponyboy's statement, first of all we all have heard the common saying if your friend jumped off a roof would you follow? I think that if someone in Ponyboys gang did something really bad, Ponyboy should not just let it slide. He needs to realize that he has to stick up for what's right. Also he himself should definitely not do what his gang does because clearly it is the wrong thing. And I think that Ponyboy knows that. If I were in Ponyboys situation I would tell the Greasers that what they are doing is wrong and that they should NEVER fight with the Socs or with each other! This is my opinion on the first two chapters of The Outsiders. Anyone reading this feel free to comment!!
ReplyDeleteI think that Ponyboys philosophy makes sense, but only for him. I think that because in his special case his parents are dead and he only has his brothers. To add to that he's only 14 so he can't be homeless at that age! His only choice is to stay with his brothers and since his brothers are in the gang he will be too. I don't think he likes being in the gang because he is so different. It seems he just wants a simple life I see that because he is so different (always reading and it seems he doesn't like his life and thinks he has too many probeems
ReplyDeleteI do and do not agree with this philosophy. I do because I think if you're gang is all the "family" that you have, then you should stick together and stick up for each other.
ReplyDeleteOn the other hand, it is bad to stick up for the gang if the gang's actions are wrong no matter how close you are with them. You need to know whats right and to follow that path. Dont just stick up for something because you know that the gang will be mad if you dont. Always do what you know is right no matter what the conflict.
I agree with Ponyboy's philosophy because if you're part of a club,you agree with certain rules and you help each other out. It's the same thing with a gang.
ReplyDeleteI do not agree with that philosophy. I think that Ponyboy should not have a bad influence from some boys in the gang. If he is in a gang with guys who do bad things, then if they get caught then the police might think Ponyboy or other members of the gang who didn't do anything, have done something wrong. If I were Ponyboy I would try to stay out of the way and try not to do anything as bad as slashing tires or drinking. I would want to be like a Jonhny character- the gangs "pet", but i wouldn't like to get jumped or beaten up by my family. Sometimes I feel that I have it rough, but after starting this story, I don't think that anymore!
ReplyDeleteI definitely agree that if you are in a gang you should stick together. It's like making a commitment because a gang is a group like a family and family helps each other. It's like a block tower; if one part of the gang/tower falls out then the whole gang might collapse. This way you and your fellow gang members can count on each other.
ReplyDeleteI disagree with An.T, if Ponyboy didn't stay with the Greasers he would get beaten up by the Socs. Also if you grow up with people like Ponyboy's brothers, you would have a very different attitude. Even if you don't agree with what the Greasers do maybe you could be like Johnny like Lauren said, after being harassed by the Socs a few times, I think many people would have a different prospective. And the Socs would know you were poor, since you weren't part of their gang.
ReplyDeleteI agree with Sarah R because the gang members are his family and you have to listen to them, respect them, and never put one of them down. If either one of them is going to jail or all of them, I would think that it's smartest to just have one person go to jail!
ReplyDeleteI agree that it's important to stick up for your friends, however sometimes sticking with your "gang" will cause you to make bad decisions. In this case that could cause being jailed or getting beat up, or even death. However, in Ponyboy's case, he doesn't have much of a choice. He has no mother or father, and his "brothers" are part of the Greasers. In Ponyboy's case this is what everyone does, and peer-pressure is hard to ignore. If I were in the Greasers, I would stick with the gang but I would try to apply common sense, unfortunately peer-pressure is VERY powerful. If Ponyboy did not stick with the Greasers he would probably get beat up even more, in his case it's a life or death situation.
ReplyDeleteI sort of agree with Micah, but not totally. I agree that a gang is like a family and that the members have to stick up for each other, but I think their's a certain point where if a person does something bad enough then you shouldn't really be that close to him.
ReplyDeleteHey Mr.F.!
ReplyDeleteSo, I thought long and hard about this question. I think no matter what, friends should really stick together, and be loyal and truthful. It's because that's what friendship is, being loyal, and truthful. You can't backstab your friend. So, Ponyboy didn't want to backstab Dally to Cherry and Marcia. Friends are so important, they're almost like family. We even have proof here about Johnny. His father abuses him in the story and he probably would have ran away by now, but he doesn't want to leave the Greasers because they are like family to him. It's always important to be loyal to a friend, but in a dangerous situation, even though you might feel like your doing the wrong thing, you have to tell someone if your friend did something wrong. I have an experience where there was a group of friends and one of them did something really bad, but all the friends didn't tell their boss, but the boss found out and fired all of them because they were being to loyal. That's why sometimes it's bad to be too loyal to your friends, but 99.5 percent of the time you should always be loyal to friends. That's why I think what Ponyboy said is almost always true.
Thanks!
See you tomorrow!
I think that although being in a gang has its bad sides, as Channah pointed out, in Ponyboy's case it's really important to his emotional structure to have friends and family, even if they do bad things sometimes.
ReplyDeleteI totally agree with his philosophy. I think that it is so important that we stick up for our friends (and in this case a "gang"). Not only for our friends but for who we are. If Ponyboy thought that maybe some things were violent or unnecessary, he should voice his thought. I also think that in Ponyboy's situation the "gang" is part of his life and he feels very secure and safe around them. If I learned at a young age that I am allowed to walk by myself places I would feel more safe when walking by myself when I'm older.
ReplyDeleteSee you all tomorrow!
Hey, this conversation is off to a fantastic start! Channah Leah and Sarah K., I'm struck by your comment about family, the idea that you support your family, right or wrong. If any of you had a sibling who was doing something harmful, wouldn't you tell on them in order to protect them?
ReplyDeleteI agree with Micah when he said "It's like making a commitment because a gang is a group like a family and family helps each other". when you join a group you make a certain commitment. And once you make those commitments everyone expects you to follow the rules and act/be like them.
ReplyDeleteI would tell my parents!
ReplyDeleteShira, you support sticking up for the gang, but also say that Ponyboy should tell them if they are going too far. If they push back and continue being too violent, should Ponyboy give up bothering them, continue criticizing them, or quit the gang?
ReplyDeleteI agree with ponyboy's philosophy. I think that if you made the commitment to group you have to do more than that commitment, you have to go beyond, you have to follow the group. You have to stay by the groups side in good and bad times, just like Ponyboy said. If you belonged to a group and didn't agree with this philosophy you shouldn't be part of the group. You shouldn't have made a commitment to stay with the group through good and bad times because committing yourself includes staying with them whether they are the bullies or they are getting bullied.
ReplyDeleteI disagree and agree with Lauren. I agree because I think I too would rather be in Johnys position than be in Ponyboy's position. I disagree with Lauren because even if Johny is treated better than Ponyboy because he was beat up by the soc's and is now very timid I would rather be treated like Ponyboy than be scared of a needle dropping and having terrible memories. Another thing that Ponyboy has that Johny dosn't is a nice family. Johny gets beaten up by his father a lot and his mother ignores him. The only bad thing in Ponyboys family is Darry, but I think Darry might not even be bad after reading what Sodapop said at the end of Chap. 2.
ReplyDeleteBy the way,
Who's Voldemort?
Mr. F., I think that Ponyboy should stick up for the gang when he thinks their actions are not to violent but once he thinks they are going over the line he should voice his thought. If they push back and continue being violent he might just want to back away because he never knows what back-stabbing his own gang might do.
ReplyDeleteI agree with Pony Boy. When you join a gang you commit to watching your gang members back. If you do not stick up for the gang members, it's not a gang anymore. Pony should stick up for his gang members because if he doesn't he could get beat up. If i was in Pony's situation I would act like I prefer being with the Greasers. But secretly i'd prefer to watch movies and read a good book.
ReplyDeleteI agree with Ponyboy's philosophy of sticking up for his gang members because if he didn't, then he wouldn't stand a chance against the Socs. Even though his gang members do bad things, he still should stick up for his gang members. When Ponyboy is with the rest of the greasers, he might try to act tough. Then, the rest of the gang members might not think of him as a kid.
ReplyDeleteJake, what you say about avoiding a beating makes sense. But can you imagine a situation where you might want to do something that feels right, even if there is some risk that you'll get hurt? Isn't that what heroes do?
ReplyDeleteI agree with "Voldemort", I think that being part of a group means that you have to stick up for everyone else, and they need to stick up for you. But you also have to be careful, you can't "crack" and let your friends "change you". I also agree with Micah, being in a gang is sort of like creating a bond with others, and you have to stick with them forever! sort of like what Micah said, being in a group, is like a chain, if one link breaks, the entire chain breaks!!!! In the end, I agree with Ponyboy's philosophy, and you have to stick up for your friends no matter what!!!!
ReplyDeleteMr F. , it would be very hard to be a hero if you are the smallest kid in the gang. But he could still secretly try to influence the other gang members to become nicer people.
ReplyDeleteMr. F., I think that it would depend on how wrong/harmful the thing was. If it weren't so bad h a thing, then I wouldn't want to get my sibling in trouble.
ReplyDeleteShaira, I think that Ponyboy is a good judge of character, and he wouldn't support people who would stab him in the back.
I think that like a couple people said gangs are like family. Also, these greasers don't have parents to lead them. Instead, they have fellow gang members. They will stick up for other members, and the other members stick up for you. If these kids had parents, and weren't in gangs, they would be dead, killed by the Socs. Then, no one would be debating over gangs, for all the wrong reasons!
ReplyDeleteI completely disagree with Ponyboy's philosophy. Saying, "...no mater what they do... " is very risky. What if they killed your brother then would you? From what we know about the gang they can do some very bad things that Ponyboy might not want to stick up for. I agree with Micah that gangs should stick together but if someone does something that bad then you might not want to take up for them.
ReplyDeleteHannah, what if they knowably did something that endangered your life? would you still use that philosophy? Sarah R., I think that unlike clubs, gangs have one strong character who makes most of the decisions,and, as Shira said, if they are too violent he should consider quitting, although the socs aren't too great either, and he needs protection.
ReplyDeleteChannah Leah, I also think he is a good judge like he would know when to stop if they push back. But knowing that his own gang is all bigger then him, they might decide on something without him and (not literally) stab him in the back. I would hope that if he is in a group they wouldn't do something like that but in this dangerous time and neighborhood anything violent could happen.
ReplyDeleteJohnny has parents!
ReplyDeletePandaboy (is that the name on your birth certificate?), I thought you were going to say that since they didn't have parents, they needed a gang. But you said something more unusual. How would having parents and not being in gangs lead to their death? Mr. F. is puzzled.
ReplyDeleteThis is for you Mr. F.
ReplyDeleteI think not being in gangs or with parents leads to their death by socs, because they don't have anyone to protect them.
I agree that no matter what you must stick up for everyone else in your "gang". If you don't you will have no trust in each other. Even if another person in your gang is doing something not so great, I think you should help them because they are your friend, and at the very least not turn them in. Though, I think you should help your "gang-mate" stay out of trouble. And even commit a few crimes with them to show your faith if that will link you together and show your love and support for one-another. Bottom line never show distrust to your friend and always stick by them.
ReplyDeleteI think gangs are extremely unsafe unless their doing good stuff unlike the greasers. I also think that gangs that do illegal stuff should be split up and all of them should get sent to jail even if they personally weren't caught!
ReplyDeleteWell, as you can see I let Anonymous post a comment, Was that you Pandaboy?
ReplyDeleteAs for your comment Joshua G., you're venturing onto interesting conversational ground to suggest that committing crimes with friends shows your faith in them. I agree that this seems to describe the greasers, but how about "gangs" you might hang out with?
Hi Mr. F. and my fellow 7th Graders,
ReplyDeleteI agree with Sarah K.'s 1st comment about how she would probably act in this scenario, I agree this is probably how I would act too. But, the way you worded it you make the greasers sound like the bad guys. Are they bad people, or is it just the circumstances and how they were raised? I'd like to know what everyone thinks (if that's okay with you Mr. F.).
Everyone's a bad guy in this book.
ReplyDeleteChannah Leah, surely you can't be calling our narrator, Ponyboy, a bad guy! Maybe he commits some questionable acts, but at heart, don't you see some goodness?
ReplyDeleteIn my opinion I think that when Ponyboy said this line: "You take up for your buddies, no matter what they do. When you're a gang, you stick up for the members." I think it was a kind of motto for the greasers, and that if one of the greasers was doing something really bad I strongly believe that Ponyboy would not side with them.
ReplyDeleteHe most certainly isn't all good. No one is. The book isn't about good vs. evil, it's about human lives, and how we're all a mix. And Ponyboy doesn't think for the most part, that what they are doing is wrong.
ReplyDeleteI agree with his philosophy. Like Ponyboy himself said, "If you don't stick up for them, stick together, make like brothers, it isn't a gang anymore. It's a pack." If Ponyboy hadn't been part of the gang, the socs would probably have killed him in the beginning of the book. Instead, the other members of the gang came and helped him out.
ReplyDeleteAt the begining, uriya said that Ponyboy didn't follow his own rule. I don't agree with that, because sticking up for the other members of the gang isn't necessarily the same thing as agreeing with them or doing the same thing as them. Either way, Ponyboy still defended Dally after he left.
An.T said that if she was in that situation, she would tell the rest of the gang that what they are doing is wrong. I just want to point out that if everyone else is doing something, then sometimes it's not so easy to tell them that what they are doing is wrong, especially if they are all bigger and stronger than you!
An.T also said that what the gang is doing is clearly the wrong thing. What else could they do in that situation that would be the "right" thing?
Like Akiva J said,
Who's Voldemort?
Mr. F.,
ReplyDeleteWith no parents or gang to walk you every where, you would be killed by the Socs. Pandaboy is not on my birth certificate, because I never got one, but it is my legal name. And, I am not this "anonymous", whoever this coward is, he should come out with his real name and fight me! BWAHAHA.
Pandas and boys unite!
In Ponyboy's case I would stick up to the members of his gang because they are like family to him since both of his parents died. Even though Ponyboy should stick up for the members of the gang it does not mean that he should be acting the same way as them all the time. For example why would anyone want to be acting like Dallas where you could be sent to jail for your actions. Even though Ponyboy sticks up to the the gang he never does what the gang is doing all the time. I think that if I was with the greasers, I would act the same way as Ponyboy but not commit any crimes like not paying to see the movie.
ReplyDeleteI think that the greasers are bad people because they do bad stuff but it might just be because they were raised that way.
ReplyDeleteAaron, you raise an excellent point that Ponyboy might have died in Chapter 1 if he didn't have the gang to come to his rescue. But wasn't Ponyboy in such danger in Chapter 1 because he was a member of the greaser gang?
ReplyDeletehe? I'm insulted
ReplyDeleteMr. F. he's a greaser with or without the gang.
ReplyDeleteJake, I do not think it ever says that if he does not stick up for the gang, the gang will beat him up. I agree with you that if you do not help others in the gang it is not really a gang anymore, and that you have to watch the other gang members back.
ReplyDeleteEitan, your example of bad boy behavior, sneaking in the movie without paying, feels like such a small part of the picture of greaser misdeeds. I wonder if we kept a list throughout the book how many examples we'd find. Did you notice in Chapter 2 how, just for fun, the greasers beat up some innocent middle school kids?
ReplyDeleteI agree with Sarah K that if they were raised that way that is how they will act. They are also influenced by what they grew up with and what they are surrounded by.
ReplyDeleteWho is this "Anonymous"?
I think that Ponyboy should stick with his gang. They are all the family he has got, and without them he'd probably be dead. If it hadn't been for Sodapop, Steve, Darry, and Johnny, Ponyboy would have starved, and died. Ponyboy doesn't really have a choice. I agree with An. T. that sometimes it might be dangerous to stand up for them, but Ponyboy doesn't really have a choice. Everyone in his gang cares for him (or at least isn't mean to him) and they will always stick up for him, so he should stick up for them.
ReplyDeleteP.S. The reason mine is so late is because I have 60 tissue paper flowers to make.
Hi Mr.F and 7th graders,
ReplyDeleteI agree with Sarah K, where you grow up and who your friends are influences your actions and decisions. I kind of disagree with An.T because the gang are like he mentions in the book, practicaly family to him. So far it sounds as if there isn't much ponyboy can do about the greasers actions and if he would suddenly go against them he might lose his friends. And in Ponyboy's case the gang are almost all he has,except for his brothers. So I understand why ponyboy would stick up for the members.
And really who's Voldemort?
I agree with Micah because in a gang you should listen and stick up for the members in your gang. If the gang is doing something wrong, there is a hard decision to make. You can either stick up for your gang members or you can just quit because they are doing something bad. I would stay with my gang because I made a commitment and they would be mad if I quit.
ReplyDeleteTo all,
ReplyDeleteIt's been a pleasure spending the last two hours with you! Your comments were thoughtful, and the attention you paid to each other was first-rate. I'm always struck by how much time some of you choose to spend cruising the blog.
It's time for me to say goodnight as your moderator. If you post a comment later on this evening, I'll check it out tomorrow morning and post it then, so feel free to keep on chatting!
I disagree with Elisheva, because your gang can do something bad but you don't have to quit altogether you just don't participate in their wrong doings!
ReplyDeleteI agree with Ponyboy's theory, because I think that Ponyboy doesn’t really have a choice. I think that he finds himself a lot of times dealing with the fact that he is the only intelligent guy, and the only one who enjoys books and movies. If this story was happening today, in our area, I think that Ponyboy shouldn’t stick to the bad behavior of his gang. But this story isn’t like our life, and this is what Ponyboy needs to deal with, because he is a greaser and his siblings are greasers and that is the life he knows. I think that the same rule is also for his gang, and therefore they should respect the things he likes. I think that a gang should always be together no matter what, especially in Ponyboy's case. In that time you had to be in a gang, and if you wouldn’t, the other gang (the Socs) will get you, so even though Ponyboy doesn’t realy like his gang's behavior, that's his only choice to survive. As Ponyboy says in the first page: "I have to be content with what I have"- that's his life, and he's going to live it.
ReplyDeleteEveryone- I think that everyone has raised very good points. There are obviously good things about Ponyboy's philosophy, and bad things. If I were in his situation I honestly don't know what I would do. I'd like to believe that I would go all hero-y and tell the gang what they have been doing wrong, but I'm not so sure that I would be able to.
ReplyDeleteMr. F.- I think that you should tell everyone in class who other people's aliases are. I'm getting tired of not knowing know Voldemort and Anonymous are.
Everyone- Good night (or morning depending on when Mr. F. posts this)
i also agree with liav. i really like how you link the gang with is survival liav!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
ReplyDeleteI agree with ponyboys philosophy and think that you should try to stick up for your "gang" most of the time because for ponyboy,the gang is all he has really since he has no parents. Also if he didnt stick up for his gang they wouldnt want him to be part of it, and then he would just be a 14 year old kid with no friends or parents, and his brothers would be spending most of their time with the gang, so he would pretty much be all alone. but I also think that sometimes it's not always best to stick up for them, like when dally was being mean to the two girls, i think he did the right thing by not joining him and doing that too.
ReplyDeleteI disagree with Liav, at the end you said that "In that time you had to be in a gang, and if you wouldn’t, the other gang (the Socs) will get you" thats not necessarily true, you could be part of the socs, or u could be a soc and just not participate like cherry for instance.
ReplyDeleteI agree with what Shani said BUT the only problem if you don't participate in the wrong doings it won't stop the wrong doings all together!
ReplyDeleteI think that the Ponyboy's philosophy is entirely correct and I have a couple of reasons to support this statement. First, if Ponyboy and his gang members had not been sticking up together, the whole gang would fall apart and some kids will end up in the jail. I also think that Ponyboy should not necessarily stick up for their behavior. Rather, if the Greasers were to do something wrong (e.g., rob a store) then he should try to protect the Greasers from the cops.
ReplyDeleteHi Mr F.
ReplyDeleteYeah I also agree with Elisheva and Micah. Gangs listen and stick up for for their members because they're like family. For example when Ponyboy was walking home from the movies and the socs beat him up, Ponyboys "second" family helped him after he got beat up from the socs.
Shani, here's something I'd like to talk about in class tomorrow. You suggested that people could choose not to be in a gang, but instead be a soc. Is this a choice for Ponyboy? What are Ponyboy's choices?
ReplyDeleteIn my opinion, it really depends if Ponyboy should stick up for his gang. If they are getting beat up by somebody, it is quite a good idea to come to their defense. But in a case where the gang wants to rob, tease, or mug, maybe he should just stay out of it. You always need your friends, but if they're being bad influences, just stay away from the wrong doing. This doesn't mean the Socs sound any better, but going and being mean to a few isn't the right thing. When it comes to talking about your buddies, it's great to speak nicely about them, but just be careful. His gang is his family, and that's fine, but maybe he should just be nicer to OTHER people too.
ReplyDelete--------------------------------------
I'd like to respond to to An.T's first comment. I do agree that he shouldn't be doing that, and personally I would never like to be in that situation, but he IS in that place and he isn't giving in to peer pressure or anything, he's doing what he believes to be right. He needs his gang, even if they do bad stuff. I'm not saying that what he does is right, just that the are many times when they are only coming to someone's aid when they are in trouble, as opposed to actually starting a fight just for fun.